Westlake Chap Star Swing TFA Tournament
2020 — Austin, TX/US
CX Debate Paradigm List
All Paradigms: Show HideI am open to all arguments and will do my best to adapt to you. I am very focused on my flow so be mindful when moving from one card/argument to the next to leave a gap or say "and" to clearly indicate motion. Slow down on authors and dates please.
CX: I'm a policy maker but am always open to other arguments. My main concern is whether or not you've proven the resolution is true or false.
Topicality/theory: I default competing interp. If there aren't good extensions or if it's a wash I probably won't vote here.
K: If the lit is obscure you'll need to explain it to me a little more than popular Ks. Feel free to ask.
Case: I want the aff to extend in every speech. I will likely not vote exclusively on case defense, so negs please have another voter.
LD: I'm very line-by-line driven, and focus on the flow. Be very specific with voters.
Value/criterion: Not a must-have, and in many rounds I judge I find debaters will spend time on this without ever impacting it as a voter. If you go for this, that is totally fine, but give a clear reason why it matters in determining the resolution's truth.
Pre-standards/observations: Fine with these, but I feel the more outlandish ones need a little more work to actually matter. In any case, it is important that these are answered and not dropped.
Off-case: totally fine and love to see it, so long as whoever runs any off has an understanding of how to run that argument.
NC: I tend to be less persuaded by strats that try to spread the aff thin and just go for whatever they drop/undercover, and while I won't stop you from doing that, I begin to err heavily in the aff's favor when they have four minutes to answer 4 off, respond to your case, and defend their own. In my opinion, it's better for debate for you to demonstrate your skills by thoroughly arguing a really good voter rather than throwing half-hearted args at your opponent to see what sticks.
Aff: The most frustrating part of judging LD is watching 1ARs that try to do line-by-lines on everything and drop part of the flow. I want to see a 1AR identify the reason the 1AC theoretically wins, extend that and respond to attacks against that premise, identify why the neg would theoretically win, and respond to that. The aff does not have to win every single argument in round to prove the resolution true, so show your skill by covering what you absolutely must in this small period of time. Too often I see 2ARs make good arguments that are too little too late, so do whatever it takes to give a 1AR that doesn't drop anything important (only drops stuff that isn't important) be it taking extra prep, going with opposing framework, etc.
McKinney '18 (small school, north Texas)
Yes, I would like to be on the email chain: chensixiao@gmail.com
I am okay with speed, but make sure to slow down on tags, theory, analytics, etc. If I cannot understand you, I will call "clear."
I won't count flashing/emailing as prep, unless it gets unreasonable. Generally this should take <15 sec., so if you're struggling with this, take some time to learn how to use Verbatim's built in features.
I haven't formed any concrete views about judging debate, which means that I will evaluate most arguments as they are debated. Even though I debated mostly on the policy side in high school, don't let this stop you from reading your best args. I'd rather see a good K debate than a bad policy debate. This does mean, however, that I would appreciate more explanation during K debates, unless you want me to parse through and misunderstand your authors.
I like comparative and detailed impact calculus. This includes comparison of timeframe and probability. Comparison and calculus is crucial for me to evaluate a theory or framework debate.
This is my first paradigm, so let me know if you have any more specific questions before the debate and I'll do my best to answer them.
do whatever you want. just be nice. low chance i vote on theory unless it's dropped. not familiar with k lit so if that's what you want to do make sure you explain it well.
General:
She/her/hers
Lampasas HS C/O '19 (2A/2N)
UT '23 Neuroscience and Government
I like to think I'm a tab judge, but I tend to vote like a policymaker. I think the most important and hardest aspect of debate is to explain how you winning a certain argument affects the way that I vote in the round - thoroughly impact things out and directly tell me what I'm voting for (ROB), I'm not going to assume it for you.
If there is an email chain, please add me to it: skkarca32@gmail.com
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
Topicality:
I usually defer to reasonability, but if the debate becomes centered around T, then I'll move to voting on competing interpretations.
Kritiks:
I didn't run K's in high school, but I do have a good understanding of cap and fem. For any others like biopower, just take the time to impact them out and heavily go through a line by line debate rather than just overviews. I think the best Ks are ones that engage the aff and don't rely solely on the framework debate to win them the argument. I'd vote on the alt, and not necessarily the link.
CPs:
I'll evaluate any CP. For me, CP's often come down to a) is the perm a viable option and b) if not, how much of the aff can the neg offense on the CP flow solve.
Framework:
If there is no substantial clash on framing, then I will default to the best policy option/util. If you're going to go for framing, it has to clearly tie into your mpx calc and your ROB.
Stylistic Choices:
Speed is not an issue for me as long as you can maintain it. The only thing I ask is that you signpost CLEARLY (!!!!!) and give me a second for tags/authors/dates. I think it's important to note here that drops don't matter unless YOU tell me why they matter. Solely re-reading a tag and telling me to extend it is NOT an extension (this is my biggest pet peeve, please don't do it). Explaining your evidence through analytics and extending warrants in later speeches will go further with me opposed to just listing a bunch of cards on the flow. Weighing offense v. defense is also important to me when looking at the round holistically.
Debate History: St. Mark's '10/Trinity University '14
Assistant Director of Speech and Debate - Hendrickson HS (2017-2023)
Director of Speech and Debate - Sandra Day O’Connor HS (2023-present)
Lincoln Douglas thoughts
I come from a policy debate background so I definitely feel the most comfortable judging debates where the negative utilizes things like CPs, DAs or Ks. However, I am totally game to judge a traditional value/value criterion debate.
Pet Peeves:
1) Do not run a disclosure theory or any other argument based on pre-round norms unless it TRULY rises to the level of making the round IMPOSSIBLE to debate - 99% of rounds do not rise to this level and I am tired of judging rounds with constantly moving goalposts (wikis, 30 mins before round disclosure, full open source) for what constitutes "proper disclosure".
2) Have a plan before the debate for evidence sharing - I prefer an e-mail chain but SpeechDrop works too, but please do not wait until the end of the first speech to decide how this will be done.
3) I honestly lose respect for debaters who I feel are running identity based arguments for the sake of a ballot without either authentic personal connection to their scholarship or the ability to make authentic connections to the topic. If you are just running Race War because you saw some other team do it or you think it makes you a cooler debater, it doesn't and please stop. Racism doesn't exist for you to pick up debate ballots.
4) Not a pet peeve - but the debaters I enjoy watching the most are the ones who treat the debate like a game of chess in terms of setting up well-planned strategic moves through targeted cross-ex questions and well planned argumentation and blocks. The more strategic and prepared you seem in my eyes, the better your speaker points will be.
Public Forum thoughts
Please for all that is holy - do not try to become a policy debater just because my background is predominantly in policy debate. I have judged and coached PF consistently for over 5 years at this point and recognize its value as an event that is distinct from policy. There is nothing worse than PF debaters who attempt to cosplay as CXers.
Going off of what is stated as above, there is no circumstance in which a lack of disclosure makes a PF round impossible to access/participate in. Therefore, there is no circumstance in which I will decide a PF round on disclosure theory - you only get a month to debate your topic, lets actually debate it please.
In terms of what I actively DO look for, impact calculus actually grounded in evidence and active analysis. I feel like "debater math" is often arbitrary and replaces actual contextual impact analysis.
Please don't skip crossfires or grand cross, these are the moments where clash often occurs - to me it is tantamount to skipping a speech and speaker points will reflect it.
Smart and strategic choices to invest or divest from flows/arguments reflect public forum debaters with great critical thinking skills and knowledge of their case/the topic at hand. Speaker points will be rewarded to those who make smart, necessary, strategic choices instead of collapsing/extending purely for the sake of it.
Policy/CX thoughts
I treat each debate round as an academic exercise in decision making. I leave many questions of framework and impact calculus to the teams debating, however if not otherwise explicitly stated I will default to a policy making framework and utilitarianism, respectively.
T/Framework:
I typically evaluate this from a competing interpretations standpoint and an offense/defense framework but can be persuaded otherwise. When making these kinds of arguments, negative teams typically forget that their interpretation is of how the debate space should operate and thus must defend it as so. Negative teams MUST explain why their interpretation is better for the overall debate space in order to get my ballot. In round abuse arguments are compelling, however, they are nearly impossible to prove and I have a high threshold for voting on them.
I am a fairly firm believer that debate is a game and that structural fairness is an impact. However, this also means that fairness should be utilized as a lens or impact filter for all the other impacts in the framework debate.
Counterplans:
Many of my thoughts in the above section apply to my thoughts on counterplan theory. I feel that 2 conditional advocacies is the most that the negative should run, much to the chagrin of most folks (new affs are an exception). That being said, I won't default certain ways in theory debates. I will be considerably more compelled to deem that a counterplan solves an affirmative if it is a specific CP than if it is your typical agent CP. Specific PICs that have functional impacts on plan implementation are so much better than your generic process counterplan. So, so, so much better.
Kritiks:
Many kritik teams tend to focus more on tricks than substance. The most important portion of this debate for me is the link debate and I expect a clear explanation of why the specific affirmative links. It is the negative's task to explain why the permutation cannot possibly solve back/overcome the links. I will default affirmative in many of these debates. I feel that the best kritik debaters are the ones who are willing to adapt their strategy and link debate to the specific affirmative that they are debating.
Links of omission are functionally spotting the aff a uniqueness overwhelms the link argument to the net benefit to a very vacuous alternative. Please have link specificity.
Disadvantages:
I didn't think I had thoughts on this until recently. There are very good disads and very bad disads. If you are aff against a very bad disad, don't be afraid to point this out! I feel like I am more likely than most to say there is zero risk of a disadvantage when the uniqueness very clearly overwhelms the link or there is zero link specificity.
Speaking:
-Yes email chain: alymithani91@gmail.com. Every time a varsity debater forgets to hit "reply all" on an email chain, a kitten cries and you will lose 0.5 speaker points.
-Do not clip cards! If there is an ethics challenge, I will stop the debate and have the accused debater re-read their speech with either their speech document on my computer or standing over their shoulder. That being said, ethics challenges are serious, if you are making one, then you are willing to lose the debate if you are wrong. Strategic ethics challenges will result in horrific speaker points from me.
-I will call you out if you are blatantly stealing prep and it will hurt your speaker points.
-For paperless teams, I do not run prep time for saving/flashing the speech unless this time starts to become excessive or it becomes evident that prep is being stolen.
-It drives me crazy when debaters are disrespectful to each other. There is no reason why competitiveness needs to turn into aggression. Treat the debate space like a classroom.
-Another pet peeve: debaters who do not seem to legitimately enjoy what they are doing. Debaters who go through the motions are usually the ones that end up with the lowest speaker points from me. Even if you are not keeping up with the technical aspects of the debate, if you remain engaged and committed throughout the debate, I will definitely feel more comfortable with giving you higher speaker points.
Read a topical plan--------------x-----------------------------say anything
Tech-----------------x-------------------------Truth
Usually some risk--------------------------------x----------Zero Risk
Conditionality Good----------------------x--------------------Conditionality Bad
States CP Good-------x------------------------------------States CP Bad
Process CPs--------------x-------------------------------Ew Process CPs
Competing off immediacy/certainty--------------------x------------------------No
Reasonability-------------------------x------------------Competing Interps
Limits---------x-----------------------------------Aff Ground
CP linking less matters-------------------x-----------------------links are yes/no
Read every card--------------------x-----------------------Read no cards
Judge Kick------------x-------------------------------Stuck with the CP
Reject the Team---------------------------x----------------Reject the Arg
CPs need cards-----------------------------------x-------Smart CPs can be cardless
K links about the plan-----------x--------------------------------K links about a broad worldview
About Me:
NLHS Policy 2013-2017
UT 2017-2021 (just judging, no debate)
A&M Law 2021-
Top Level
Email for chain: steelemusgrove17@gmail.com
Email for contact: steelemusgrove@yahoo.com
The easiest thing I can tell you about my paradigm is that I am tab. I'll vote on anything, and I essentially ran anything while I was in high school, so you're not going to lose me in running any of your favorite arguments.
Further in-depth stuff (this is primarily for policy, but can be cross-applied to LD (or PF I guess)):
When I say I'm tab that means that I will vote in any framework you give me, don't mistake that for if you win the framework you win the round (this is especially true in traditional LD). I have voted for teams that lose the framework debate, but still had better offense under the opposing framing. Therefore, you need to both win your framework and meet that framework better than the opponent to win the round. However, if you don't run a framework I default to an offense-defense paradigm where I vote on whichever team has managed to generate the most offense.
If you're baffled by a decision it is because you did not warrant. I am a stickler for warranting, especially in extensions, and if you don't extend a warrant, even over a dropped argument, then I'm not doing that work.
Kritiks
Like I said, I'm tab, so naturally I'm fine with/a fan of Ks. I am NOT a fan of 2NC/2NR overviews of kritikal buzzwords that do nothing to advance debate in the round. I'm not 100% read on all K literature, so if you're going to use technical terminology - define them, tell me how they relate to your alt, to the link debate, and to the aff. Line-by-line is generally much easier for me to flow and understand a K debate.
That being said, I would avoid reading one-off K in front of me. I won't vote down one-off K on face, but I find that it's not terribly strategic, and doubly so if you're the type to concede all of case by going for the one K. All of the eggs in one basket just isn't good strategy, and it's super boring to listen to.
People will talk about how you need a specific link - I'm not that type. If the aff has a good reason that you need a specific link then you should be able to provide one, but a good generic link to the topic, state, or debate will suffice without aff contest.
Presentation
Stylistically I don't really care what you do. I can handle your spreading if you can handle your spreading. If you're unclear then don't spread. Furthermore, signposting is an absolute must between flows and cards. That can be as a simple as saying "next off" or "onto the K," and between cards inserting an "and." If I miss a card or argument that you didn't signpost clearly where I should've flowed it will not be evaluated, and that's on you.
Offensiveness in round is always bad, and I'll penalize any aggression appropriately depending on severity of the aggression. There are instances where you might just be ignorant which will only result in a minor speak penalty and a stern reprimanding in RFD. Above all, be polite to your opponents. You can be competitive, but don't be rude, especially in CX.
Redundancy isn't great. That means reading a bunch of repetitive cards, putting an explanation under a card that explains the card you just read, or just saying the same thing over and over. I get tired of this quickly and it does harm speaks. Card dumps seriously aren't persuasive or strategic about half the time. If you're card dumping like five new impacts onto a undercovered disad in the 2NC that's chill, but just reading like 5 uniqueness cards that all say the same thing isn't.
I evaluate speaks through strategy, not presentation. A 30 happens through really good decisions, time allocation, unique argumentation, etc. I can't tell you what exactly gets a 30, nor will I attempt to define it further decisively here, but I know it when I see it.
Theory
I don't err anything on any argument before a debate, so all theoretical objections are up for dispute. That being said, I've seen a lot of debates where people read two shells at each other (such as states bad v. good) and don't have any actual clash. If that is the ONLY sort of argumentation being put down on a theory flow before the 2NR/2AR, do not try to convince me to vote for theory because it'll end up being a wash, and I'll vote on presumption.
Speaking of presumption; I tend to vote it on it a lot because many people end up not winning anything. So in the case that there doesn’t seem to be any offense for any team I default to presumption. Most of the time for me that means neg, but if there’s an alternative advocacy on the flow then it goes aff. If you have a different model of presumption in mind - make it an argument, but otherwise that's how I vote.
Note about disclosure: I have an impressively high threshold for voting on disclosure, and there are a number of ways that debaters articulate disclosure that I find objectionable. Please do not make arguments for disclosure based on the capabilities of small/rural schools (especially if you are from a (sub)urban/large school). Moreover, please do not read interpretations that mandate your opponent post any sort of contact information on the wiki - I will not vote on this interp no matter how hard you're winning the flow.
T
I wouldn't say that I have a high threshold for T, I will vote on T if you win it, but you need to win each part of the T: interp, violation, standards, and voters. (Theoretically you could get me to vote on a T with just an interp, violation, and standards if you win that a stock FW is good)
The "all three branches T" is really popular right now. I'll vote on it, but it's the worst T argument. Nothing uses all three branches because that's not how government works.
Disads/CPs
I don't think you absolutely have to have either of these in the 1NC to win; if you like em, go for em, and if you don't, don't. I'm not a person who's super convinced that things have to be super specific or anything like that - generic links are fine, just try to contextualize to the aff or give a good scenario analysis.
Misc.
Please, god, do not sit at the door weirdly if I'm in the room waiting for my queue to give you agency. Just walk in. I'm the judge; you are ALLOWED to come in if I'm in here.
I don't care where you sit. I don't want to shake your hand before or after the round (especially true as of March 2020).
“My partner will answer that in the next speech” is NOT a cx answer, and if you use it it’s minus 1 speak.
Same thing goes for asking questions that are prefaced with "in your own words."
I am timing, my time is the time. You should still time yourself. I do not give signals during speeches, CX, or prep.
This is specifically for UIL tournaments: there's no such thing as "UIL style" and most "UIL rules" aren't actually rules. Any appeal to the UIL that aren't in any UIL handbook will not be flowed and is again, -1 speak.
PF Debate:
- I don't judge this event nearly at all, but please just select sides in such a way that pro always speaks first. I get confused when it's reversed.
- Also, there's nothing I hate more than the PF convention of sharing evidence. Please just flash entire cases.
email chain: diemktnguyen@utexas.edu
Shortcuts
K – 1
LARP – 3
Phil – 1
T/Theory – 2
Trix – 1
Ideally I would like to be 1 for all styles as I am not ideologically against any of them, this ranking reflects my current confidence/ability to deliver a good decision in a particular style.
Background + General
Hey y'all. I'm Nate. I did LD all throughout high school in Texas and judged regularly until the pandemic, last tournament being TFA state 2020. I've been out of the meta a hot minute but I'm looking forward to getting back into it. Yes I want to be on the email chain, bonus points if you start the chain before the round to speed things up - my email is nathan.smith191710@gmail.com
- I'm fine with speed I'll give two verbal clears and then I'll stop flowing until you change.
- Tech over truth 99.99% of the time. (that .01 being clearly discriminatory/exclusionary arguments)
- People who's paradigms I generally agree with - Patrick Fox, Ethan Massa, Rob Glass, Richard Garner.
- Please be civil, why debate if it makes you miserable? If debate makes you miserable but you still want to do it, why take that out on someone else? You and your opponent are both humans and deserve as much kindness as can be mustered. Being competitive and being kind go hand in hand, productively debating good debaters make you better so why not want everyone to succeed ?
Arguments I will not vote for / will vote you down for
Doing any of these things will provoke a reaction from me that ranges not flowing it to immediately giving you an L-25 depending on the severity/intentionality of the offense.
- Arguments that are explicitly racist/sexist/transphobic/ablest/etc
- Arguments that claim nonhuman animals have no ethical value / claim the oppression and/or suffering of nonhuman animals is good in any way shape or form. Maybe this is a hot take but I've learned not to care, feel free to discuss this with me after the round.
- Making the argument that the death of your opponent would be good in any way, shape, or form. I do not care what K this may be tied to, if you do this you get an L 25.
- I refuse to vote on anything that happened before the 1AC or after the 2AR. The only exception to this is disclosure. This includes arguments that link to positions your opponent may have run in other rounds.
- I won't evaluate the debate after the 1AC.
Defaults
These can all be changed very easily in round but this is how I evaluate until told to do otherwise.
- Truth testing > Comparative worlds.
- C/I > reasonability.
- Epistemic Confidence > Epistemic modesty.
- DTA > DTD.
- Fairness > Education.
- Presumption and permissibility negate.
Disclosure
Disclosing is good and I'm sympathetic to it but have also voted against it. Here are 4 cases where you will not be able to get me to vote on disclosure: 1 - performances which disclose sensitive personal information 2 - novices 3 - People who are not aware of the wiki 4 - cases where the wiki has been down (in this case speech docs/disclosure should be done person to person until it can be disclosed). I am trusting you to not abuse these exceptions, don't make me sad.
I want screenshots of the violation in the speech doc. Don't make me handle your gross laptop to see them.
LARP: Cool.
I won't kick the CP for you. Please for the love of god weigh things for me. The spark DA may be the funniest thing I've ever heard, if you run it in front of me and execute it perfectly, expect good speaks
- 2 condo is maybe ok? 3+ is probably abusive.
- You don't get to kick planks of a condo CP.
Ks: This is my favorite genre of arguments
I am familiar with most critical theory (I ran/have read outside of debate a lot of Baudrillard, anthro/animality, and psychoanalysis) and I'm happy to answer questions about individual Ks before the round BUT you should start the round with the presumption that I have no clue who on hell is Baudrillard because it encourages you to give better explanations. You will not win your K if you don’t explain it. I only have jurisdiction to vote on what your articulation of the K is, not what I've read outside of the round. Aff, please impact turn anything that won’t be morally repugnant. The more specific the links are to the aff the happier I will be.
Words/Phrases that bad K debaters have convinced me are meaningless - Subjectivity, "power relations," ontology, "[X] bodies," co-option, neoliberalism, "rendered," pedagogy.
K affs: Very cool and nice.
I prefer these be interesting, unique, and have a clear topic link. You should be able to explain in round why not only the READING but also the DEBATING of the aff is a good idea. If you answer the question "what is the role of the negative" with "to lose" I will be immediately less convinced about the legitimacy of reading the aff in debate. I think there is some value in debate even if that value is to just have fun so I appreciate thoughtful and intelligent consideration about not just why your scholarship is good but why bringing into a discursive sphere like debate is uniquely good.
If you don't like these affs, read framework and engage with it. 5 frivolous shells will make me hate you.
Phil: Good and true
Phil debates are cool. I think contextualization of why I care about offense is equally important as the offense itself.
Here are some authors/Lit bases/arguments I feel comfortable evaluating.
- Kant
- Levinas
- Virtue Ethics
- Mackie/error theory/emotivism
- GCB
T/Theory
General - I'm a fan. I think It's ok to use theory as a strategic tool and I find claims that a certain shell is frivolous totally dependent on whether or not an abuse story is being won or not.
T Framewonk - I think Framework is a good model for debate. I think plans and stable offense are probably good for the event. While this does not mean I hack for framework (my voting record is about 50/50 on this issue) I am unconvinced by lazy arguments that presume I am naturally disposed against framework because of my love for the K. Anyone running a K aff has the burden to provide a justification for why the debating of the aff is good and what the role of the negative should be under their model of debate. K debaters and Framework debaters that have utilized that issue effectively for their side are often the ones that pick up my ballot.
Trix
I dig trix debate. There's a line to be drawn for sure but most of the time I think it’s ok. I think Skep is a fun argument and T/T vs comparative worlds is a fun debate when done well! Yes I vote on a prioris.
Speaks
Things that will make your speaks go up
- Kindness, respect, and general helpfulness
- Unique and well executed strategies
- Good Baudrillard debates
Things that will make your speaks go down.
- Rudeness towards opponents
- Bad Baudrillard debates
I'm pretty much a tab judge (typically judge CX). I'm only going to evaluate what gets said in speeches (and so I won't vote you down for arguments the other team didn't make). Tell me how and why to evaluate the round the way you want me to. Then win the flow with that framing. Also, clash is very important to me, so the team that has the best contextualized analysis that is responsive to the opponents' argumentation will probably get my ballot. Articulate how the blocks of evidence you read answer what the other team put on the flow.
Add me on the email chain: varunvermadebate@gmail.com
If you have any questions after a round, feel free to contact me with the above email as well
Have fun and be nice! (Important)
General
I'm good with open-cross examination, prompting, and flex prep, all within reason
Don't steal prep and try to start on time
Presentation
Please signpost between cards and on different pages of the flow.
I'm fine with most spreading but please go slower on taglines/analytics and don't mumble. The more you want me to understand, the slower you should go.
I'll say "clear" if I need you to slow down/enunciate more. If I have to do that more than once, you'll lose speaker points.
Impacts
I don't like seeing massive-scale impacts with bad internal link chains that don't make sense in the real world. Take a step back from the debate world for a second and ask yourself if what you're saying actually makes sense.
Kritiks
I enjoy K's and read some in high school, but be aware that I easily may be unaware of your literature. Make sure you explain everything clearly and cohesively. Contextualize links and tell me what the alt actually looks like in the real world.
Theory/T
I don't like voting on these arguments unless I have to. I like diverse affs. There needs to be proper clash and impacts. I tend to think about these arguments in terms of reasonability but may be told otherwise. Honestly, I'm probably not super qualified to understand all the nuances of how these debates should go.
I will not evaluate T unless it's five minutes of the 2NR. I also want to see a full shell in the 1NC (interpretation, violation, standards/reason to prefer, voters).
Counterplans
I enjoy CP debates in policy rounds
I generally believe that 2 conditional CPs are fine unless told otherwise
Explain your permutations when answering CPs. Don't just say "Perm do Both" and then move on
I'm willing to judge kick the CP after the 2NR (only) if explicitly told that that's an option unless the Aff has really strong arguments as to why that's unfair/abusive