Hi! My name is Drew Anderson and I am a Financial Advisor. I have a bachelors degree and am in my 3rd year of working with people of all ages and goals. I was recruited to judge this tournament by someone who is a debate coach. I have debating experience myself, and I will judge this round based on the following: I am a policy paradigm which means I will vote for the team who debates the most convincing policy. If the debate is extremely close, your demeanor and delivery will also factor into my decision. DO NOT SPEED! Keep your arguments real (i.e. no generic impacts or end of the world scenarios.)

I lean conservative and I am considered a millennial, but I also have an open mind. I will judge you based on the arguments that you present without bias. Please don't assume that I already know wat's going on. It's always your burden to clearly state and explain your arguments.

Hi! My name is Laurel Anderson and I am a Speech Language Pathologist. I have a masters degree and I'm in my second year working with elementary students at a school in Kansas City whose demographic is over 60% African American. I was recruited to judge this tournament by someone who is a debate coach. I have debating experience myself, and I will judge this round based on the following: I am a policy paradigm which means I will vote for the team who debates the most convincing policy. If the debate is extremely close, your demeanor and delivery will also factor into my decision. DO NOT SPEED! Keep your arguments real (i.e. no generic impacts or end of the world scenarios.)

I lean conservative and I am considered a millennial, but I also have an open mind. I will judge you based on the arguments that you present without bias. Please don't assume that I already know wat's going on. It's always your burden to clearly state and explain your arguments.

High School Debate/Forensics – Shawnee Heights (2014-2018)

College Policy Debate (NDT/CEDA) – Wichita State (2018-2022)

Previous Assistant Debate and Forensics Coach at W. East and W. Southeast

Current Head Debate/Forensics Coach at Wichita Southeast High School

Email: kaylab222@gmail.com

I like clean, organized, and well thought out debates that focus more on the depth of the arguments. I also value and reward teams that engage in high levels of clash and attack the warrants of the evidence. I am a policy centric judge, that has coached all types of debate styles. That being said, do what you are comfortable with. However, I am best in debates that revolve around some sort of policy or plan. The best way to win my ballot is doing clean line-by-line and explain why the weight of your arguments matter more than that of the opposing team.

When debating on the affirmative, what I look for is a team that can articulate a story about what the plan is, how the plan solves, and what the advantage of the plan is. I am noticing more and more in debate rounds that teams are not extending each part of the AFF, with explanations of all the moving parts. Even if the neg does not respond to a part of the aff, your job as the aff is to still extend that argument if you want to keep it viable.

If you are going to read topicality, there are a few things to consider. First, I am a judge that is a sucker for in round abuse. Even if you have to bait them into giving you the link on your ground/limit’s arguments, it is something that I am willing to vote on.

I love a good CP/Net Ben/DA Debate. This is the debate I am probably the most comfortable in, and the best judge for. The only thing I ask for in this type of debate is for the negative to explain how the CP solves the link on the DA/Net Ben, I am not going to be this gracious and do the work for you.

I don’t have a preference on whether teams go for theory or topicality. The biggest thing I look for in these types of debates are 3 things: 1. Proven in-round abuse, I don’t really care for the hypotheticals of “well this could happen” I want to know why the other team violated the rules so egregiously that it made this debate impossible for you to win. 2. Voters, this is something that is being overlooked and I am not sure why. Tell me how and why I should evaluate this argument in the context of the debate. 3. On topicality, I am more apt to vote for T if there is some version of a TVA – especially if you make an argument as to how the tva solves the advantages.

I don’t have much thought on K Debate, well-articulated links and solvency is what I look for in a K debate. I am not the most familiar with K literature, so please make sure to articulate any complex components of solvency or any buzz words.

Other niche thoughts, be nice to people, don’t steal prep, please signpost, analytics is not a part of a roadmap (what are the analytics about?), and have fun.

Questions? Ask me before the round.

Zachary Brown

He/Him/His

zrbrown@gmail.com
Updated: Sept 2019

Background:
8 years debate experience 2000-2008 (Derby HS, Wichita State University)

11 years coaching experience 2007-2018 (Assistant coach- Wichita East HS, Wichita State University, Head Coach- Hutchinson HS)

I am no longer as active as I used to be and I have not coached or judged extensively for the last few years. Explain your topic acronyms and argument jargon.

I think the topic is important but what the "topic" means is open for discussion. Debate is an important forum and I support efforts to discuss ways to make the community better.

I feel that respect and inclusion are fundamental values. Be mindful of the people in the room. Be nice! I have no tolerance for rude, disrespectful, and exclusionary behavior. Don't like it? Strike me. Debate is a game. Play to win, but have fun!

I don't care what kind of arguments you make, just make it a good one. I am not impressed by teams who copy the latest trends and arguments from a college or national circuit wiki without fundamental knowledge on how to execute those arguments. I like innovative arguments and I've voted for some wild stuff, but know your argument and do it well. I appreciate gutsy decisions and well executed strategy. I miss case debate.

At the risk of being a luddite, I don't like to call for cards and I don't want to get your speech doc. Debate is a communication activity and too many debaters rely on the speech doc to make arguments that the were not clearly made in a speech. I don't want to read the evidence unless I have to. Usually if I call for a card that means that there is a fundamental disagreement about contents, suspicion of clipping, or unclear argumentation. Evidence quality matters a lot to me. The most underutilized skill in debate is good evidence comparison. Give me reasons to "prefer your evidence". It is the job of the debater to explain their arguments in a way that is understandable and flowable. Rate of delivery doesn't matter to me, but clarity does.

I know there is lots of other stuff to discuss. Just ask me before round if you have any questions.

6.2.5

Experience:

3 years High School Debate

4 years College Parliamentary Debate

1 year CEDA College Debate

12 years Coaching High School Debate

Tabula Rasa but default to Policy Maker.

Please tell me how and where to vote so I don’t have to make that decision for you because you probably wont like it.

I favor quality of arguments and evidence over quantity.

Speed: I am ok with speed to the point that it is applicable to real life. The reading so fast you gasp for breath has no purpose in real life. Slow down on tags.

Make sure you give me a roadmap and signpost! Staying organized is key to a successful debate if you are jumping around and not indicating what you are arguing or where I should flow it may lead to trouble. I will flow it where I think it goes but that may not be what you want.

Analyze cards and weigh their relevancy in the round.

I don't love theory or T but I will listen to it and flow it if you present the argument well and it's explained correctly.

Impact calculus is key in the round and whoever can prove that has the best chance of getting the W on the ballot.

I've been an assistant coach at Campus HS (Haysville, KS) for 7 years, and I was an assistant in Valley Center, KS, for 3 years. I also debated in high school.

Clarity of arguments is most important to me. Debaters should be understandable, and they can speak at a rapid pace. However, extreme speed--like that of an auctioneer--is unnecessary. It is better to have quality arguments that read a ton of evidence. I like for debaters to explain how the evidence supports the argument he/she makes. Merely reading a ton of evidence with no analytical link to voter issues is not productive debating. Don't assume that I will use the same reasoning or make the same connections as you do. It is your job as the speaker to help the audience understand and prefer your position in the debate. Keep it civil as well. I prefer arguments based in reality not theoretical or philosophical impossibilities.

If I stop flowing and cross my arms, that means you have lost me. Either you are confusing or you are reading so quickly I can't understand the words coming out of your mouth. This is your visual cue to adjust your speaking style to make yourself more understandable. Debaters often make the argument that the way a judge votes determines if a policy passes. I have never heard or seen a legislative session in Congress use spreading to pass laws. I really don't want to hear this in the round.

Above all, I vote on the logic and clarity of the arguments. This means that you must do more than read evidence.

I debated for 4 years at Kapaun Mt. Carmel High School and 2 years for K-State.

Email: benlengle@gmail.com

For LD thoughts look to the bottom of the paradigm.

Speed is fine, but clarity is more important. If I say "clear" and you don't become more clear I will put my pen down and stop flowing until you do so.

In the era of online debate I ask that you go 70-75% of your max speed.

Clipping is cheating. If a warranted ethics challenge is made, it will be an auto-loss. If not argument is made I will scratch any evidence that was clipped in a speech.

TLDR

Most of my argumentative style deals with the kritik. Policy is great but much like with the k, explain stuff and don't assume I know anything.

Theory

Don't waste your time reading theory arguments that intuitively don't make sense, you aren't prepared to go for, and/or are just a time suck. If you read conditionality you should explain what particular abuse they lead to or what they force you to choose between that results in strat skew. Bad theory arguments can only hurt your speaks. I need pen time or I won't flow your argument. I default to judge kick but making the argument as early as the block makes sleeping at night easier. "New affs bad" prolly isn't a voter.

DAs

They're great. Evidence comparison is important.

CPs

Your CP needs an internal or external net benefit that outweighs a solvency deficit if you want me to vote on it. "Solving the aff better" is not an offensive net benefit. People seem to make competition a very complicated issue. I don't think that textual competition matters that much. "Positional" competition does matter to me. I don't think there is such thing as a "cheating" CP as long as it has a solvency advocate and the affirmative gets to make solvency deficits.

Case

Case debates are good, woefully lacking right now, and can make other arguments easier to go for. I also think that people need to debate the case for K affs in most cases. Even if it's as basic as saying "ontology wrong" or "psychoanalysis bad", say something to mitigate their ability to weigh case against your off case arguments. If there is literally nothing you can say on case without being problematic, point that out on your framework page. I love analytics on case.

T

Your T argument needs to make sense in my mind if you want me to pull the trigger on it. If you see me looking confused in the back, make sure you explain your violation. I default to competing interps unless told otherwise. Aff teams need to explain what they mean by reasonability and how it implicates the rest of the neg's offense.

Ks vs Policy Affs

Don't assume I know the complex theory behind your criticism. I am most familiar with queer theory and settler colonial critiques, but do not assume that I am an expert on either. Your K needs uniqueness, or more specifically how the aff makes things worse than the direction the squo is going or the alt will go. I think the aff, in most instances, gets to weigh the aff. What that means (fiated implementation, research practices, etc.) is up to the debaters.

Additionally, since I primarily read the critique, I will hold debaters to a higher standard in terms of explaining alternative solvency and link stories. Don't think that just because your judge was a K debater that you can get away with just reading the K and winning.

T vs Non-traditional Affs

"The clash of ideas is the sound of freedom" -a fortune cookie

I tend to believe that fairness is not a terminal impact. I have a hard time quantifying it in relation to affirmative turns and disads to framework. You would need some concrete, aggregate data that showed people quitting or however you explain why it matters and exclude any variables that don't deal with critical affirmatives. Clash and iterative education are much easier to win in front of me.

If you are not reading a plan text that says "USfg should" I generally think you are wasting your time trying to meet the neg's interps. You are much better off just impact turning their standards and telling me "maybe our interp is flawed but theirs sucks so much more". Not to say that you can't read redefine "USfg", "restrict", etc. but if you do you need to be ready to debate DAs and mechanism CPs. I do think a counter interp is necessary to win these debates, but I can be convinced otherwise.

I think a lot of policy teams tend to look at a k aff, see it doesn't say "USfg should" and determine framework is the only answer. I implore you to go to the other side of the library and find some good critique of their theory. That could be the cap k or any number of criticisms that impact turn the aff (queer optimism against queer pessimism), but just relying on FW only plays into the hands of these k aff 2As.

While my track record in college is only reading non-traditional affs, don't assume that I won't vote on framework. While I had my reasons for reading a critical affirmative, I probably think that policy affs have some educational value so just be real and tell me why you think your legal education/fairness arguments matter.

Method vs Method

The only question I think teams care about for rev v rev debates concerning judges is whether the aff get's a perm. While I can be persuaded by the argument "no plan = no perm", I generally think that permutations are logical in method debates. That being said if the aff is shifting their advocacy every speech, the argument "no perms in method debates" makes a whole lot more sense.

Here are some miscellaneous tips:

I'm displeased by the way cards are read these days. If you have fortune cookie highlighting and 3 word tags, expect lower speaks. Your tags should make a strong claim with a hint of the warrants in the card, which should be highlighted to include sentences that make sense. When highlighting is like, "heg...key...stop...isis...get...nuc", it shows how little you've invested into your evidence quality.

I generally prefer tech over truth when it comes to competing claims, but my ballot will never say I vote aff/neg because any form of bigotry is good.

Reading structural pessimism arguments (Edelman, Wilderson, etc.) when you not of the structural group your evidence talks about (queer, black, etc.) against someone of that subject position is risky in front of me and kind of uncomfortable. The threshold for commodification or paternalism arguments is really low in these debates.

If you disagree with my decision feel free to ask away after the round. Just be aware that if it isn't on my flow, I don't evaluate it. If I can't explain your arguments back to you/the other team, that's usually your fault and not mine.

LD Paradigm

Value/Criterion Debate- I prefer a simpler debate here and am not a fan of vacuous v/c's. In my experience judging these rounds, they tend to devolve into debates of semantics where people are saying the same things in different ways, or people are making assertions concerning the opponent's v/c without any logic or evidentiary proof. The v/c debate, much like the case debate needs to be warranted, impacted out, and comparative to your opponent's. Refrain from clear hyperbole (e.x. "They justify the Holocaust/slavery").

Case- Aside from problematic arguments (racism, homophobia, sexism good, etc.), I am fine with you reading whatever you please. Do comparative impact work across the AC and NC flows and connect your arguments with the v/c debate and you'll be fine.

I have judged debate and forensics off and on for the last 7 years.

Debate is, first and foremost, a communication activity. Arguments should be clearly laid out in a way that allows me to understand, but also shows that the debaters have a firm grasp on their evidence and why it is being used. Pretend I know nothing. I am not a flow judge, but I do take notes in the round.

I don't ask to see speech docs. My decisions will be made off of what is said in the round.

I encourage you to speak at a conversational pace.

Jason Hibbs
Arkansas City HS, Arkansas City KS

Policy/CX debate:

Kansas HS debater early 90s, one year non-policy and one year policy in college (mid 90s).
Kansas HS debate teacher/coach 1998-2013. Assistant (not in the classroom) 2013-current - used to judge 10-20 rounds a year, less frequently last 5 years.
Traditional policymaker.
Substance > style.
Not well-read in critical/kritik areas - will require analysis of the position.

LD debate:

Coached and judged many rounds in 2005-2014.
Clash and weighing values are both important.

IE
Kansas HS and college participant in most of the individual events.
Teacher and coach for most of the events 1998-present. More familiar/comfortable(?) with public address events.

2/2024

General Experience: Over 15 years of experience in the Debate & Forensics community (competing, judging, and coaching).

Policy Debate: Tabula rasa with policy roots. Negative conditionality good; love counter-plans. Open to K's and K Affs.

Debated four years at Maize High School '20

Former assistant coach at Wichita East High School '20-'21

Duke 2024 (not debating)

Add me to the chain: jason.g.lin20@gmail.com

NCFL - PFD

There are 2 rules in PFD

-No Ks

-No Spreading

Overall

*I'm 2 years out from thinking about policy debate, so I will struggle some to keep up with national circuit speed. I will try my best. Decisions will also likely take longer. I can still watch lectures on 1.75x at least, #PortableSkills.

Tech > Truth, and evidence quality matters to me. I find a lot of cards are atrociously highlighted. That said, I don't wish to read through all your cards; Make arguments about them, so I don't need to default to ev.

Clarity > Speed - note, this is even more true for online debate. Speed = # of ideas effectively communicated to the judge.

Don't clip/steal prep. Let me emphasize again -- DON'T CLIP, actually physically mark cards when you say to mark cards. Stealing prep after a warning has great speaker point consequences.

Evidence comparison/argument resolution good. Shadow extension/no clash bad.

I would rather listen to a politics+CP debate than a kritik debate, but I would also rather listen to you debating your strongest argument than you adapting to my preferences. Ks must pass the make sense test

A well explained, logical, argument trumps an unexplained argument merely extended by its "card name"

Cross x is a speech-I figure it in as a substantial factor in speaker points

DA

- Disads are about story telling - If I can't explain the story of the DA back to you then I won't vote on it.

- I think link debates require the most skill, and I will focus on it heavily. Many internal links also are often sus but overlooked.

- Do turns case and comparative impact calc. Canned overviews without any change round-to-round are bad. Judge instruction is good. Impact calc about risk is also pretty convincing since I'm often left with two existential impacts

CP

- Great, but like most judges, I prefer case-specific over generic counterplans, but we can’t always get what we want.

- CP's like consult or conditions that compete off certainty aren't great, but the aff can't blow it completely off either

- Floating PICs/Word PICs are pretty iffy for the neg--reading it as a K should solve most of the education impact, but I have yet to see many of these debates

T/Theory

- Blocks are good but no substitute for the line-by-line.

- I find a bunch of T-interps are arbitrary. Precision/predictability should prolly outweigh a marginal limits impact. However, negs that coherently connect their interpretation, violation, and standards with tangible impacts will be rewarded

- Default condo good. Somewhat high threshold, but I do recognize how forcing the aff to double turn themselves can (debatably) be problematic

- Perf Con is better utilized as a solvency takeout rather than a theoretical issue

FW

- Impact calc matters a bunch here; offense is key.

- I read both fairness and education impacts, and I don't have a strong preference for either against K affs.

- K affs in the direction of the topic are better for me

- new-ish to these debates

K

- I most likely only have a surface level understanding of your Kritik. Even less for postmodernist theories. More common K's like Cap and Security make more sense to me.

- Impact turning is often underutilized. Extinction first/heg good can be persuasive if done right

- Go more in-depth with each aff argument rather than shotgunning a billion perms. That increases my burden on the negative to disprove your arguments

I prefer traditional debate with clash and reasonable speed. I've done this for awhile so you can run what you run as long as the analysis justifies why I should vote. Not a big fan of K debate but if you can do it well, go nuts. Tabula rasa but I'll default to policy maker if not given a reason to vote.

*I teach AP American Government. It would be in your best interest to either 1. Argue funding/enforcement/federalism accurately structurally or 2. Avoid them like the round depends on it (it often does). I'm unlikely to vote on funding/enforcement/federalism arguments that are misunderstood or misapplied. Telling the judge how government works while not knowing how government works hurts the credibility of your argument.

Maize High School (China, Education, Immigration, Arm Sales)

Wichita State (Alliances)

Cornell '24 (taking a sabbatical)

Formerly coached at Maize High School and St. Mark's School of Texas Call me Connor. they/them

connormlldebate@gmail.com

---Top Level---

1. Do whatever you're best at and I'll be happy. When I debated, I primarily ran policy args. My last year of debate, ~50% of my 2nr's were T. I was more K focused for a few years. I'm probably not the absolute best for K debaters (see section below), but I can hang. I usually find myself in clash debates.

2. Disclosure is good. Preferably on the wiki. Plus .2 speaker points if you fully open source the round docs on the wiki (tell me/remind me right after the 2ar. I'm not going to check for you and I'm bad at remembering if you tell me earlier).

3. Don't be mean or offensive. Please actively try to make the community inclusive. I think debate is sometimes an opportunity to learn and grow. However, openly reprehensible remarks and a continuation of poor behavior after being corrected will not be tolerated. I will not hesitate to dock speaks, drop you, or report you to the tournament directors/your coach if you say or do anything offensive or unethical. I can "handle" any type of argument but maintaining a healthy debate environment is the most important aspect of any round for me.

---Things that make me sad---

"Mark that as an analytic" - no.

Not numbering and labeling your arguments. Give your off names in the 1nc. It makes me frustrated when everyone's calling the same sheet different names.

Asking for a marked copy bc you didn't flow.

Stealing prep. You all are not as clever as you think you are. I know what you are doing.

Not starting the round promptly at the start time and generally wasting time unnecessarily. Debate tournaments are exhausting for everyone and I would like the round to be finished ASAP so I have time to write a ballot, give an RFD, talk to my teams, eat food, etc.

Not knowing how to email. I get that mistakes happen, but also it's the year of our lord two thousand and twenty four. The chain should be set up before the round. I really don't want to do a speechdrop.

Give your email a proper subject line so everyone involved can search for rounds when they need to later.

"I can provide a card on this later" - no you won't, no one ever does.

---Online Debate---

I'm a big fan of posting the roadmap in the chat.

Slow down. It's possible that I might miss things during the round due to tech errors. Most mics are also not great and so it can be harder to understand what you are saying at full speed.

I have a multiple monitor setup so I might be looking around but I promise I'm paying attention.

If my camera is ever off, please get some sort of confirmation from me before you begin your speech. It's very awkward to have to ask you to give your speech again bc I was afk. It has happened before and it sucks for everyone involved.

---Ks---

I'm totally fine with Ks, but my audio processing issues often are not. I struggle to flow K debates the most I've noticed, and I think a lot of that has to do with the way K debaters debate. Being hyper conscious of the flowability of your arguments is key to me picking up everything. I won't be offended if that means you pref me down. I'm mostly just requesting you don't drop huge blocks filled with words that are not easy to flow if you want me to flow everything you said.

If you're reading something that includes music in someway, I'd greatly appreciate if you turn it down/off while you speak. My auditory processing issues makes it difficult for me to understand what you're saying when there is something playing in the background. I don't have any qualms about this form of argumentation, I just want to understand what you're saying.

If you are going for the K in the 2nr and don't go to case, tell me why I shouldn't care about it.

K affs need counter interps. I require a greater explanation of what debate looks like under the aff model more than most judges. You should explain how your (counter)interp generates offense/defense to help me conceptualize weighing clash vs your model. I don't think shotgunning a bunch of underdeveloped framework DAs is a good or efficient use of your time. Most of them are usually the same argument anyways, and I'd rather you have 2-3 carded & impacted out disads.

I think that fairness is probably an impact but I don't think it makes sense to use it as a round about way to go for a clash terminal. Just go for clash or go for fairness. Predictability is usually the most persuasive i/l for me. I think debate has game characteristics, but is probably not purely a game. If you go for clash, contextualize the education you gain to the topic and be specific. I think it rarely makes sense to go for both the TVA and SSD in the 2nr.

---Other thoughts---

Condo is good but I'll vote that it's bad if you go for it. I mostly don't think there's a great interp for either side.

I love scrappy debaters. I've only ever debated on small squads (i.e., my partner and I were the ones doing the majority of prep for the team) so I respect teams that are doing what they can with limited resources more than most. Debaters who are willing to make smart, bold strategic moves when they're behind will be rewarded.

I'm not sure how I feel about judge kick. It seems like it makes 2ars incredibly difficult, but I think sometimes that's okay.

I'm almost always willing to hear a T debate.

Former high school debater although some time ago. Current assistant coach. I primarily look for good logic in arguments that are well supported by your evidence. Common sense arguments can speak loudly. I'm not the best with very rapid speed but I absolutely try my hardest to keep up.

Asst. Debate coach 6 years, Debate in High School, Head Forensics Coach 6 years. Theatre Teacher

The biggest thing I look for in a debate is clear and precise speech. I am ok with spreading as long as you can annunciate every word and make sure that your speech is understandable.

Areas that I tend to give the most weight are as follows:

Solvency

Topicality

Inherency

I will flow throughout. The biggest thing I do not like in a debate is if it get's too far off topic and the plan is not debated at all or touched on very little.

To me debate is about being able to know what you are talking about and having clear answers and to have facts available at the tip of your tongue. It is not about reading. Know what you're talking about and you will be fine with me.

I am much more experienced in forensics than I am in debate.

I have been judging all types of debate for a few years now, so I know the basics, but I generally prefer to be treated as an inexperienced judge (in other words, please speak fairly slowly and assume I don't know many abbreviations for the current topic).

I care most about competitors speaking clearly, acting professionally, making logical arguments, and having solid evidence to support those arguments.

I have found that I am difficult to be persuaded on Topicality arguments. I also REALLY don't like kritiks... And if you make a ridiculous stretch to something leading to nuclear war or human extinction, you probably won't win that argument with me.

Experience

4-year policy debater/forensian @ Lansing HS (light congress) 2001-2005

4-year assistant debate/forensics @ Lansing HS 2006-2011

7 years head coaching debate/forensics (1 Leavenworth 2010-2011, 5 Salina-Sacred Heart 2012-2018, 1 Hutchinson 2018-2019)

4 years assistant debate/forensics @ McPherson HS 2020-pres

Policy:

I like T that links, DAs and affirmative advantages should have real-world feasible impacts, and I am only in favor of K debate if the framework has equal ground for both teams to earn a ballot (don't run K's that are impossible for the aff to meet the alt). CPs must be competitive to be viable. Tell me why you win and what to vote for.

I believe the negative has to have a coherent position. I don't buy the "multiple worlds" theory of negative debate.

I am fine with open CX, but I am immensely against open speeches. Never feed your colleague lines in a speech. I don't care if they parrot your words exactly, it is not your speech to give.

LD:

I like deep discussions on interactions between the value and its criterion, especially when values and criterion are cross-applied between competing sides. I see LD as competing frameworks and will prefer the debater that does a better job framing the resolution in terms of the value and its criterion (or criteria).

PFD:

I have no idea how this format works. I will vote on the team that gives the most compelling reasons to prefer.